@kara sorry if this came across as rude. I'm so bad with fucking words.

@neomorph nah, it's no prob

@neomorph oh, Mircea Eliade is not a name I know. could you furnish some context?

I find weed useful only under certain circumstances. the intoxication produced by a high dose of an edible is something I can work with; what I get from just smoking pot from a bong is more or less not helpful at all

@kara Sure, he wrote on native shamanism back in the day from a very western academic perspective. And called shamanism that uses substances "narcotic-shamanism" and called it decadent and did not consider it "real shamanism". Weird guy.

Sounds interesting with edibles, might actually give it a try in some workings next week. :)

@neomorph so real shamans aren't real shamans cos they've used drugs since time immemorial in multiple cultures

yeah, that sounds like a thing a privileged white academic would say, honestly

@kara Indeed, but "narcotic" shamans were apparently not the real deal haha.

a fucked up privileged guy to say the least.

@neomorph @kara Ha ha ha, I don't mean to intervene in this conversation, but there's a subsect of Satanism called narco-Satanism. I'm laughing because it's completely different.
Narco-Satanists use drugs in their craft, but their namesake comes from the fact that they're intimately involved in trafficking and selling drugs. It refers to Satanic gangs, essentially. Which is way more dangerous but also way more normalized in Satanist scenes.

@dark_apheresis @kara

Haha this is really funny, I now when I think about it I think I actually have a small group of narco-satanists in my neighborhood. they seem a little fucked up though haha

@neomorph That sounds about right. Narco-Satanists can have a lot of personal problems or mental illnesses that lead them down that path, though some of them were just born antisocial. Others can be caught up in the ideals of a business they're just trying to make a living in. It's worth noting their take on Satanism isn't always entirely accurate, imo, but some of them are just taking advantage of a system that's there to be taken advantage of.

@dark_apheresis eh, I kinda get that attitude, although I don't think it's entirely a sensible one. it grades into other types of wrong thinking about the mind and the acceptability of using chemicals to alter its function, e.g. the notion that you should somehow be able to manage depression or other behavioral problems without using anti-depressants, just with "natural" means.

@kara It's different with magick. Maybe not so much with witchcraft in general, but with ceremonial magick specifically there are certain benchmarks you have to reach unaided for a wide array of reasons.
That said, in most cases of depression, medication is used to help stabilize you but the bulk of your treatment comes from therapy.
I have nothing against drugs, not even for recreational use. I hope you don't encounter the same issues with them everyone else I know has.That said, (1/2)

@dark_apheresis heh, well, I've _hitherto_ not had terribly much use for the ceremonial approach anyway...

@kara being bad at magick is hardly comparable to treating an illness, syndrome, or disorder.

@dark_apheresis it is for me! my practice of magick is, when it comes down to it, absolutely inseparable from the mental work I've done that enables me to function better, given my various neurodivergences that have made life hard for me at times in the past

_ideally_ I would like to do both things--magick, and managing my brain--with a minimum of outside help. "crutches", that was the word you used

practically, though...

@kara I get that. I, personally, think that there are a plenty of people like you that have some need of it and I see nothing wrong with that as long as it's done responsibly.
And it does have its place in ritual settings. There are some rituals that require both a hyper-developed natural ability and the enhancement from psychedelics, which is one of the "reasons" I was referencing in my previous post.

@dark_apheresis I think the key to using drugs is realizing that the temporary alteration of perception they produce can be useful for gnosis, but it makes integration of the knowledge gained into "ordinary time" (baseline conscious life, whatever that should happen to be) more difficult, the more profound the alteration

hence my preference these days for gentler intoxicants, as much as I like having my head blown off

@dark_apheresis @kara
The risk of being caught in the Abyss remains no matter the vehicle. Learning the use is imperative, there is no safe or more worthy path. Entheogens are an important part of all magickal practice, from temple incense to flying ointments you'd be hard pressed to find a tradition with legs that does not have their own developed rituals around such substances.
It's important not to internalise dogmatic prohibitions without examining them in the full context of practice.

@Irick @kara Are.. are you telling a Satanist not to internalize dogma, while making an appeal to tradition?

@dark_apheresis @Irick hey, works for me! although I'm not really a Satanist. (nor, even, is Chara, even though they identify as part demon, whatever "demon" even means) I am a creature of many mutually interlocking paradoxes.

@kara @Irick Oh man, don't get me started on the many meanings and connotations of the word demon. I also totally agree. It would be pretty dumb to internalize dogmatic prohibitions without understanding the context behind them or having any reasons for upholding them.

@dark_apheresis @kara
We speak with many mouths, for the rivers are our lifeblood.
To look with many eyes that dot the tailing landscapes.
A bird on a steele fell to rise once more.
That which is old is new only in the mind: for all the light touches returns to the darkness.

I advocate experimental methodologies. Cross cultural analysis is simply a good basis of evidence in regards to ritual currents. :3

@Irick @kara I do love me some tradition-defying self-empowerment. Especially if it casts off limitations masquerading as necessities.